jimtoggleJim O’Neill says a second independence referendum isn’t about to happen, and Nicola Sturgeon knows it fine well.

 

At the time of the last independence referendum, Alex Salmond said it was a “once in a generation” decision. Now here we are, scant years later, with another consultation on what is being called Indyref2. Maybe I am getting old, but generations seem shorter these days!

Nicola Sturgeon has “warned” Theresa May that there will be a referendum if Mrs May pursues a hard Brexit. But we will not learn the negotiating position of the May government until they invoke Article 50, which will be no earlier than March 2017. From then negotiations will require to be completed within two years.

Nicola is misleading the Scottish people, and she knows it. Or, if she doesn’t, she is being blinded by her own fantasies at a time when, with all the new powers coming to Holyrood, she should be focusing on the day job.

It was clearly established in the Scotland Act and confirmed by the Edinburgh Agreement that Holyrood does not have the power to run a constitutional referendum without the agreement of the UK Parliament. Where David Cameron was secure enough to agree to this, Theresa May has made clear that she will not. She is up to her neck in the Brexit (non) negotiations, with a cabinet leaking like a sieve and her authority deeply weakened by splits between hard and soft Brexiteers. She is not up for another fight. Any Scottish Government demand would be mired in court action for years and years. How long has the Indycamp case taken?

Furthermore Ms Sturgeon’s baseline position, made clear when she took the SNP leadership, that she would not call another referendum until it is absolutely clear that she would win it, has not been achieved. And, even were she to manage to hold a referendum, and indeed win it, the subsequent discussions to extract Scotland from the unitary state of which it has been a core part for 300 years, and to set up all the organs of an independent country, could not be achieved in the timescale of the Brexit negotiations.

Thus Scotland would be outside the European Union on Independence Day, and would have to apply to rejoin it, with all that entails. We would have to use the Euro, join the European Bank and accept all the rules of the European club. There would be no starting opt-outs for Scotland.

Ms Sturgeon also knows that Scotland’s financial position is substantially worse than it seemed to be at the last referendum. The substantial contribution to the budget from the oil and gas industry has fallen away, and the pound has fallen massively in the exchange rates. An independent Scotland is even less viable than it was during the last referendum, and Scotland and its people would be substantially poorer than they are even now. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas (unless they are SNP turkeys!).

Ms Sturgeon is an intelligent and experienced politician, and I believe that she knows all of this. Thus she is being disingenuous in trying to talk up a new referendum. It won’t happen, and the inevitable group of cybernats who will react to this piece need to wake up and smell the coffee.

At the same time the May Government is perpetrating a similar democratic misadventure by pushing on with cutting of the membership of the House of Commons by 50, while the House of Lords is at an unprecedented size. This means that the elected House is being cut back while the unelected House is being expanded and inevitably will make scrutiny of the policies and behaviour of the Government much more difficult. It will also, of course, result in a compulsory reselection process for all parties as MPs fight for the much reconfigured seats. If anything is designed to cause splits within parties it will be this process.

I will finish with a quote of the week. In his sketch on the Phillip Green debate on removing his knighthood, John Crace, the Guardian’s parliamentary sketch writer said:

“the award for cheek went to Michelle Thomson, who resigned the SNP whip after being accused of building her buy-to-let property portfolio by buying homes from indebted families at below-market prices using a solicitor who was later struck off for professional misconduct”

‘Nuff said!

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56 thoughts on “Democratic misadventures

  1. ‘We would have to use the Euro, join the European Bank and accept all the rules of the European club. There would be no starting opt-outs for Scotland.’

    The following countries have all joined the EU reasonably recently, most within the last decade or there abouts, however they still retain their existing currencies.

    Bulgaria – Lev (joined 2007)
    Croatia – Croatian Kuna (joined 2013)
    Czech – Republic Koruna (joined 2004)
    Hungary – Forint (joined 2004)
    Poland – Zloty (joined 2004)
    Romania – Leu (joined 2007)

  2. Absolutely everything in this article is absolute bunkum. Most of the assertions have been slain so often it’s a wonder Mr O’Neill has the brass neck to keep resurrecting them. For goodness sake Mr O’Neill, let them Rest In Peace.

  3. “Jim O’Neill says a second independence referendum isn’t about to happen, and Nicola Sturgeon knows it fine well.”

    So why are yoons such as yourself running around like headless chickens in overdrive telling everybody who isn’t listening there wont be an Indyref 2?

    Are you having problems relaxing chilling and enjoying your belief there wont be another Indyref? Your conviction is manifesting itself into a denial obsession,

    “Maybe I am getting old, but generations seem shorter these days!”

    There are at least 5 generations around at any given time Jim I don’t remember anybody specifying which generation was being referred to. I like to think its the one that’s ending now.

    “Nicola Sturgeon has “warned” Theresa May that there will be a referendum if Mrs May pursues a hard Brexit”

    No she actually hasn’t Jim That’s a stupid bare faced lie. She stated that Scotland should be allowed to have an Indyref 2 as an option in the event of a hard Brexit.

    “It was clearly established in the Scotland Act and confirmed by the Edinburgh Agreement that Holyrood does not have the power to run a constitutional referendum without the agreement of the UK Parliament.”

    No that’s another stupid bare faced lie Jim. The Edinburgh agreement came about as a means to avoid the constitutional issue being challenged in the courts because the actual constitutional position is unclear in legal terms and Cameron didn’t want to test it.

    “Theresa May has made clear that she will not.”

    Theresa May has made nothing clear at all she has left the media to make up its own reports and articles suggesting what she May or May not do.
    That’s bare faced lie number 3 Jim Bob. We still don’t know what Brexit means.

    “Any Scottish Government demand would be mired in court action for years and years.”

    Jesus Christ and now you’re just being ludicrous. On the one hand we are being told that the Brexit negotiations are for the whole of the UK so denying any Scottish input would place the UK Government at the mercy of any court action.

    Either Brexit is inclusive of the Devolved nations within the UK or it isn’t. If it is then the considerations of the ENTIRE UK has to be the founding principle of the negotiations. If it isn’t then its a case of the UK Government taking us all out of the EU under a negotiating position where England and ONLY England is considered.
    That seems to be what Labour in Scotland wants. Labour in Scotland appear to supporting the idea that the Brexit negotiations are conducted within a ring fenced consideration bordered specifically around England. Concessions made to London and specific businesses. None for the Devolved Nations.
    The very epitome of an Uncle Tam.

    “Furthermore Ms Sturgeon’s baseline position, made clear when she took the SNP leadership, that she would not call another referendum until it is absolutely clear that she would win it, has not been achieved.”

    She hasn’t called an Indyref yet. We don’t even know what Brexit is going to be but I bet my left nut that a hard Brexit will be a game changer with regards to support for a Yes vote.
    Bare faced lie number 4 Jim Bob.

    “Thus Scotland would be outside the European Union on Independence Day,”

    No it wont because Westminster will have lost the democratic legal and constitutional authority to take Scotland out of the EU during any point within the negotiating process for Scottish indy because one of the main issues to be negotiated will be that very issue! And until that specific piece of negotiation is over no action on that issue can be implemented!
    Bare faced lie number 5 jim Bob.

    “Ms Sturgeon also knows that Scotland’s financial position is substantially worse than it seemed to be at the last referendum. The substantial contribution to the budget from the oil and gas industry has fallen away, and the pound has fallen massively in the exchange rates. An independent Scotland is even less viable than it was during the last referendum, and Scotland and its people would be substantially poorer than they are even now. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas (unless they are SNP turkeys!).”

    Eh Jim Bob you’re highlighting the economic failures of the UK. Its a fact that financially and economically Scotland is worse off now after the No vote than it was before the Indyref. And after we were told that our economy would be safe under the “pooling and sharing” UK. The ONLY pooling and sharing the UK is capable of is when it shares its poverty and crippling debt with us.
    Stupid bare faced lie number 6.

    “Ms Sturgeon is an intelligent and experienced politician, and I believe that she knows all of this. Thus she is being disingenuous in trying to talk up a new referendum. It won’t happen, and the inevitable group of cybernats who will react to this piece need to wake up and smell the coffee.”

    Its a bit difficult to smell anything over that overpowering stench of utter Horseshite Jim Bob.

    “At the same time the May Government is perpetrating a similar democratic misadventure by pushing on with cutting of the membership of the House of Commons by 50, while the House of Lords is at an unprecedented size. This means that the elected House is being cut back while the unelected House is being expanded and inevitably will make scrutiny of the policies and behaviour of the Government much more difficult. It will also, of course, result in a compulsory reselection process for all parties as MPs fight for the much reconfigured seats. If anything is designed to cause splits within parties it will be this process.”

    But Jim Bob they aint doing anything that Labour didn’t do under Blair.

    You get more demented with each new article Jim Bob. Perhaps you’re letting the thought of Indyref 2 get to you too much.

  4. ‘Scotland’s financial position is substantially worse’ ‘Scotland and its people would be substantially poorer than they are even now.’

    You seem to want your cake and eat it on this one. You can’t say the Union protects Scotland through ‘pooling and sharing’ but then claim at the same time we are in financial dire straits currently despite of it.

    There isn’t any logic in that. We are either well off thanks to being part of the UK or we aren’t.

    If the Barnett formula is the only thing keeping us afloat, do you have a plan B if that is scrapped?

    Remember the 3 leaders that signed up to protecting Barnett as part of the Vow are all now in political retirement.

    If an increasingly right wing Conservative Government fails to maintain Barnett after the review in 2020 (unless by some miracle Labour become electable by 2020) then what?

  5. I see Jim’s still spouting the lie that Scotland would be forced to join the Euro,

    9 countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the UK) are EU members & aren’t in the Euro, although that number will be reduced by 1 in a couple of years. Clearly none of them have been “forced” to join the Euro, including Poland who’ve been in the EU for over 12 years now. Or is Jim claiming that the EU will bring in special rules just for Scotland’s admission?

  6. “Ms Sturgeon is an intelligent and experienced politician,……… Thus she is being disingenuous in trying to talk up a new referendum. It won’t happen, and the inevitable group of cybernats who will react to this piece need to wake up and smell the coffee”

    Spot on Jim, absolutely spot on.

  7. what we want is for them to govern help us in every day life its what the snp was elected to do not keep threatening independence if Nicola thought we wanted independence she would do it tonight the conference very well stage managed disgrace they used teenagers for politicall purposes during leaders speech 3 we were treated to the sight of one delegate looking at his watch another one sleeping just as bored as I was there again theynot allowed to go against the party in public then everytime labour were mentioned I we get the sneer followed by laughter wonder how tommy shepherd and the others who maid good money in the labour party feel about that and being called labour upstarts and can someone tell me why if labour are so bad whe n the snp lost a by election in north Ayrshire when they had been in control they could have continued as a minority but decided to stand down to reset the party that means one councillor was abroad on holiday another refused to go got voted out that meant the big bad wolves labour took control and are trying to sort out the mess left behind would someone in snp land like to explain what reset the party means who did it also were agg ll the group told and if so why did one refuse to go

  8. And here was me thinking that an article about ‘democratic misadventures’ would examine something serious like the fact that a higher proportion of voters in Scotland voted to remain part of the EU than voted to remain part of the UK – yet, as things stand, Scotland will be forced to leave the union it was more in favour of being part of!

  9. What’s missing here, with this utter pish?

    Well, usually fairy tales start with—-Once upon a time,……….
    And finish with…………and they all lived happily ever after.

    Jim O’Neil will be hoping it’s his little “band of hope” who are “happy ever after”.
    They will comprise of Jim, his boss Kezia. They will be standing alongside Ruthie, and behind her line in the sand. They will also be behind Treeza and Fluffy, and our wondrous Boris Brexiteers.
    They are the people who will lead the UKOK mob in Indyref2. A finer bunch of chancers it would be hard to imagine. What threats and promises will they be able to muster next time?

    They can explain how Scotland, a very rich, diverse economy (though badly divided) at the end of the nineteenth century can end up just over a century later as one of Europe’s poorest countries even after exploiting a huge oilfield for forty years(and we can see how Norway, utilising it’s indigenous industry, did it the RIGHT way).
    Pooling and sharing? More like highway robbery —-all colonial exploitation.

    1. Scotland is not one of Europe’s poorest countries. And it’s not a colony. Stop spouting your grievance pish on this page.

      1. Then why do you Brit Nats continually spout on about “Scotland’s deficit being larger than Greece”. This deficit being the result of our economy being entirely run from London.

        If we are not “a colony”, then where is Scotland’s sovereignty?
        When do we in Scotland “get OUR country back”?
        Why have we no say in the running of utilities like the BBC, which we help to fund?
        Why are WMD’s based here, when they are designed, built and refitted elsewhere?( all the GOOD jobs).
        Why are our elected representation to the State Parliament being cut, while the unelected element, none of whom are from Scotland’s largest and most popular Party, are increasing.
        Why is the UK State infrastructure investment more or less entirely based on the south of England?
        I could rabbit on, but my point is made.

        1. Nor is it “grievance pish”.
          All I want to know is the make up of your next Better Together grouping.
          Will Kezia be beside, or behind Ruthie on the platform?
          Will Scottish Labour share a platform with Boris and Treeza?
          Of what will your new Project Fear comprise, now we are captured by the Brexit Separatists. The Brexit Narrow Nationalists.
          Will you join with Boris and his “Ajockolypse now” theme?

          As Brexit shows, Scottish Labour are always just one step behind the Tories.
          What they propose today, Scottish Labour is in favour of tomorrow.

          Kezia was against Brexit. She almost came out for independence. Now she is totally opposed to Scots even having a say in their own future—a future which is radically different now, to what it was two years ago.
          I would expect her to embrace Treeza and Brexit, and tell us all to “just move on”!

          1. Hypocrite. When Nicola spoke on the same platform as Tories and Labour folk for Remain, it should have marked the moment you and people like you apologised for the years of “red Tory” abuse of Labour for doing the same thing on a constitutional issue during the independence referendum. But instead you persist with this dishonest idea that it’s bad for parties to stand together when they agree, except when your party does it. Shameless and shameful.

            In any event there isn’t going to be a next Better Together grouping because there isn’t going to be another independence referendum. The economic arguments that made independence deeply unattractive in 2014 and ten times more potent in 2016. Nicola knows it. She’s yanking your chain.

        2. I’m not a Brit Nat and I’ve never checked whether Scotland’s deficit is larger than that of Greece. Why are you pretending that a deficit is a measure of poverty? And why are you pretending that the Scottish Government, which has power over tax and spend and business development and the entirety of the public sector in Scotland is not even partially responsible for our economic situation?

          As for the rest of this grievance garbage – Scotland was PART of the empire which colonised other places. It has never been a colony. It has been a colonial power. We have a say in the running of all parts of the UK because we have a vote in UK elections. I didn’t get the government I voted for in Westminster or in Holyrood, but that doesn’t mean I have no say!

          Here’s a question for you and the rest of the mewling toddler grievance chimps: when the fuck are you going to grow up?

          1. Why should I apologise for the SNP standing on the same platform as Tories?
            A.-I am not a member of the SNP.
            B.- If its in Scotland’s national interest, then where’s the harm. Your problem was that you and the Tories were and are seen as two sides of the same Brit Nat coin. You have been unable to refute that, and Darling getting a rousing reception at a Tory gathering was just the icing on the “Red Tory” cake—suck it up!
            Not me who is juxtaposing deficit for poverty. Look at the endless jibes about Scotland from Red, Blue, and Yellow Tories and the economic viability of independence.
            Mr O’Neil—“Its people would be substantially poorer”.
            No context. Could we grow our economy faster?
            No time perspective. We will be poorer than now, just remaining in the UK.
            Nothing but a cheap jibe. The Republic of Ireland will lose out economically, but you wont see them scurrying to hide under UK matrons skirts. They are happy being a self governing country.
            If you are happy with this “democracy”, then I’m happy for you, Dunc. But its not for me.
            A Tory regime for the next decade at least with a daftie representing Scotland.
            A huge unelected “crony” legislature.
            Where is our “say” in that?
            Xenophobia unleased in the streets.
            Even a chimp like you should be able to see beyond the mewling Brit Nit gibberish that passes for debate in your grievance-ridden, chip on the shoulder, hypocritical loser Party. Grow up!
            No wonder Corbyn detests the lot of you.

          2. I didn’t say you should apologise for the SNP standing on the same platform as Tories. I said you should apologise for years of unfair criticisms of Labour.

            The fact that you won’t is what makes you a hypocrite.

          3. So Duncan,the SNP campaigned for remain in the brexit referendum, the same as the Scottish sections of labour and the Tories & libdems, also the Scottish Greens, while of course ukip campaigned to leave.

            And you for some reason think that made us buddies, even though Scotland voted to remain and its only the SNP and the Greens that are prepared to fight to keep Scotland in the EU because of how they voted.

            Then you have the f-ing cheek to say this was similar to the “better-together” campaign.

            Where in the brexit campaign did the SNP/Greens spend most of the time miscalling and downing their own country its institutions and its people. Where did they campaign at scaring pensioners and threatening their pensions, or telling people from the EU they would be thrown out of the country if Scotland was independent.

            Who was it that joined with the Tories and libdems to threaten Scotland would not be able to use the pound, who’s ex-leader was going around the country telling people they would not be able to get any major operations if they went independent.

            And now your moaning about being called the “red Tories”.

            Your called the RED TORIES for a fucking good reason.

          4. No, I don’t think it made us “buddies”. I think it was the right thing to do. When parties agree they should campaign together. The SNP clearly agreed that this year. My problem is that you and many other SNP supporters refuse to acknowledge that the exact same thing applied in 2014. It’s pure hypocrisy.

            And if you don’t remember the scare tactics from the SNP/Yes campaign let me give you a wee reminder:

            “Sturgeon warns Europeans could lose right to stay” http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/sturgeon-warns-europeans-could-lose-right-to-stay-1-3475453

            Yes poster

            yes poster

            Hypocrite.

          5. Red Tory abuse. That label came about because of Labour’s gung ho approach to privatising utilities and public assets. It’s introduction of commercial interests into health and education. The indolence and greed of Scottish Labour MP’s, while their previous “heartlands”were desperate for social and industrial investment.
            But you also stood four square beside the Tories to maintain a Union where we have little influence or say. As for Barnett, it would have gone if the SNP hadn’t stood their ground. All the Brit Nat Leaders who promised to standby Barnett are gone. What happens in 2020, when the present deal runs out?
            Do you think a Chancellor who advocated annexing Faslane will have ANY sympathy for financing Scotland?

          6. I am an SNP supporter, but i read the material on this site with interest.. “mewling toddler grievance chimps”? My God, if this wasn’t so laughable it would be insulting. No wonder your party loses support every day, every month, every year.

          7. Mr Hothersall, the SNP shared an aim with other Remain campaigners but they did not “share a platform”. They fought their own campaign and pointedly refused to “share a platform” with the Tories and did not join the official Remain campaign.

            There may have been occasions when they appeared on the same stage as Tory Remainers, but they did NOT “share a platform”.

            During the Indy campaign, the Labour and Tory parties united within the Better Together organisation. They did “share a platform” and Labour has paid the price for that.

            It is disingenuous of you to claim they amount to the same thing.

            And by the way, you’re the de facto moderator of this site. You’re meant to set an example. Not engage in foul language and bad tempered rants. I understand you could get exasperated at those you disagree with, but still, try to rise above it.

          8. There may have been occasions when they appeared on the same stage as Tory Remainers, but they did NOT “share a platform”.

            Is it me?

            Oh, and sorry about the intemperate language. It’s just that there were a bunch of mewling toddler grievance chimps cluttering up the comments and I’d quite like them to fuck off.

          9. Mr Hothersall, Ref “mewling, toddler, grievance chimps” – I saw your “apology”. Why do you feel the need for the aggression and the insults? Do you think such language wins you new supporters?
            And do you find that telling people to “fuck off” actually works?
            Can I suggest that next time you find yourself in such a vile temper, before responding you ask yourself “what would Kezia say”? See if that works.

          10. I’m in the fortunate position of not having to be nice to people for whom I have no respect. Cheers Brian.

  10. I’m off to Sweden shortly – better find a good exchange rate to buy my Euros. Sweden is required to use the Euro, isn’t it…? 🙂

  11. Jim do you have a meaningful hobby that you could take up instead of this “creative writing” thing you have going?

  12. I voted remain I think brexit is a disaster for the uk and it was a uk vote like it or not the day after the vote the woelsh fm was on tv begging for the uk gov to pump money in and they voted to leave we voted to stay so the scot gov started the we are being dragged out against our will stuff I think we need to take the indy threat off the table all parties sit down in downing street and work out whats best for the uk and before anyone says it I am not a tory watched fmqs today 2 years ago I nearly died our great nhs staff saved me I have been in 3 hospitals since constant checkups and medication I also have an ill health retirement pension but I am still breathing and talking I don’t think the fm understands whats going on one nurse told me th e system is only being held together because of our goodwill I have been in a high dependency ward all the patients except me were moved out at iam and more patients moved in this was because of bed pressure staff are trying their best cope 12 hr shifts etc equipment that did not work wide spread use of private nurses locums and student doctors also p i acked hospital waiting rooms that are packed I have expeiriensed this I have also seen the wonderfull staff who provide patient transport cleaners clerical staff porters kitchen staff support staff nurses doctors consultants and volunteers the system is at breaking point so are the patients

  13. Hothersall your full of crap, none of the political parties agreed to campaign together, each party ran their own individual “remain” campaigns and the “Scotland stronger in Europe” group had no serving politician’s in it.

    Of course it would have helped your case if you had actually checked your link to the Scotsman , you would have seen this could/is actually be happening, or did you miss the tory conference. Who’s the hypocrite now.

    You still don’t get it do you Duncan ! no-one absolutely no-one is forgetting what labour did in the Scottish referendum and who you stood with. EVER.

  14. Sorry, have to post at the bottom of the thread again 🙁

    Mr Hothersall wrote (October 28th, 2016 at 9:36 am);

    “Is it me?”

    Well, in this case, yes. Certainly in modern political parlance, your “platform” is the basis of your arguments, not the bit of wood (other flooring surfaces are available) you happen to be standing on. In the EU ref, the SNP campaigned on their own “platform” while the Tories split down the middle with some on the the official Leave “platform” and others on the official Remain “platform”. The SNP refused to have anything to do with either of those “platforms” standing on their own pro-Scotland one.

    In the Indy ref, Labour and Tory united on the Better Together platform. As in, Labour and Tory could interchange, with Tories representing BT on one debate and Labour another. Because they shared a “platform”. They didn’t need to be on the same stage to share that “platform”.

    If simply sharing a stage in a debate was all that was necessary to consitute “sharing a platform”, then anytime a Tory and Labour politician appeared together would, by your apparent definition, mean they were in cahoots …. no matter the issue or the reality of the situation.

    I know fine well you realise this and are simply trying to point score by pretending not to understand. Never-the-less, trying to hoodwink people into believing something that is simply not true does not put you in the best light.

    1. This distinction doesn’t really work though, does it. Labour and Tories campaigned separately during indyref as well as working together with the cross-party and non-party Better Together campaign. And the SNP campaigned separately as a party as well as working together with various stooges in the supposedly separate but actually SNP-run Yes Scotland campaign.

      The reason I know that is that I was part of Labour’s ‘United With Labour’ campaign, and I still have the jacket and badges to prove it.

      Labour and Tories didn’t “interchange” under the Better Together banner, they *worked together*. Just as the SNP, Labour and Tories, Lib Dems and miscellaneous *worked together* under the banner of Remain.

      Let me reiterate: I think it’s healthy, sensible and right for parties to work together when they agree on something. Labour and the SNP are in coalition in local government in Edinburgh on the basis of a written coalition agreement which sets out their common ground. When people who engage in formal or informal platform sharing with other parties then try to decry others for doing the same, the charge of hypocrisy is inevitable.

      1. I thought you were against Labour and the SNP ever being in coalition because the SNP were nationalists?

        1. Nationalism doesn’t impact on the administration of local government. If you paid attention, you’d know I welcomed the Edinburgh coalition. But perhaps you are just have a pop and don’t care about the facts.

          1. But surely if nationalism is about putting independence and flags before the needs of people as you have said repeatedly, surely that kind of mentality is bad for decision-making regardless of whether it is the local level or national level?

            Labour and Plaid had a coalition between 2007-2011 in Wales. I’m not sure if you view the Welsh Assembley as local or national?

            But Labour’s cooperation with Nationalist parties goes right up to UK level as well.

            Labour and the SDLP have a long standing arrangement where the Irish Nationalists will take the Labour whip and vote with Labour in Westminster, in return Labour don’t stand candidates in Northern Ireland.

            If the SDLP win enough seats in Northern Ireland, this arrangement could help put Labour in power at Westminster.

            How is this any different from any potential Labour-SNP deal in Westminster?

          2. You seem to be confusing my opinion with Labour policy. They are not the same things.

          3. So would you be for or against a Labour-SDLP pact if it helped get a Labour administration in Westminster or instead would you prefer if the Conservatives remained in power?

          4. Those are unlikely to be the two choices. If Labour and the SDLP could form a governing coalition then the Conservatives couldn’t remain in power.

            Nonetheless I think I would favour minority government with a confidence and supply deal over a formal coalition at UK level. Though I can understand arguments against that too.

          5. So on the same basis, a confidence & supply deal with the SNP and Labour would be okay too?

          6. I could live with that as a post-election resolution, not as something to argue for during an election.

          7. Fair play. I don’t envy the position Labour are in.

            Rightly or wrongly and whether it is the SNP’s fault or not, post-referendum I can’t see any appetite in England for Scottish MPs of any party holding the balance of power in British politics for long a while.

            Unless Labour win a majority in England I can’t see any chance of them winning back power at Westmnister.

            I’d argue this started post-devolution with so many Scottish Labour MPs holding positions of power.

            You probably disagree but I’d argue Neil Kinnock and Gordon Brown were two of the best political figures the UK has ever produced but their accents cost them the top job.

  15. Labour and Tory were interchangable within the Better Together organisation, depending on who was chosen to put forward the BT view. The SNP and other Remain organisations/parties were completely separate campaigns/”platforms” and could not speak for each other. That is a big difference.

    1. Given that I was involved in both BT and United With Labour, and you weren’t, do you not think I might know a little better than you how they were organised?

      1. Just a couple of things wrong with that Duncan,

        1. a lot of us remember quite well who you were supporting during the 2014 referendum, and no matter how many badges you have got, I don’t remember a lot of “united with labour” guff being shouted by you. But their was a hell ‘a lot of better-together stuff.

        2. and just incase you think everyone has forgotten who labour was in bed with for the two years leading up to that referendum, remember what the result was the following year in the General election, because Scotland certainly remembered.

        Spin this to your hearts content, but you and labour were up to your neck in it with the Tories by your own choice.

        So this puts you in a real dilemma in the future, Scotland voted to remain, so if the only way to remain in the EU is to go independent and their is another referendum.

        Who are you going to choose this time : the Tories or Scotland ?

        Well ?

        1. I chose to fight for Scotland’s interests the last time. I will choose to do so again if required.

      2. And now you are victorious, and the Tories will be in POWER, not least over Scotland, for at least the next decade, then I’m sure you will be happy………… “Ajockolypse now”—-the delightful mentality of Duncan’s preferred allies.
        Brown and Darling are ensconced in plush, gold plated Boardrooms. No food banks there.
        Corbyn is Labour Boss, Kezia is helpless/hopeless. Mundell is the worst SOS we have ever had and the only Tory, but is in POWER over Scotland thanks to the efforts of Scottish Labour.
        Oh, and Wee Duncan played his part.
        Scottish Labour—magical thinking and a money tree. Whit else would you want from Santa?

  16. I worked with my local labour party for a no vote in 14 but I did think yes was doable after all alec salmond spent 2 years on it in march that year seinior people left saying the nats were saying its our money our game do it our way I did not want to break up the uk alec salmond for all his gifts worked day I’m day out for it and failed I don’t think he is a great communicator he should have let Patrick harvie be the front man Nicola aint that great either nat members will never let their leaders take the indy threat off the table even when as now it is damaging the country they need to accept scotland voted no

  17. last night when doing my comment ch 4 news was on a ukip leadership contender was being interviieud about a tweet he sent during the eu ref about Nicola sturgeon it was vile made Donnald trump look good it should not be aloud the companies should face massive fines for allowing that rubbish through I am in the labour party does anyone agree with me we should all work together to stamp this out and anyone in a party caught doing this thrown out

    1. Jim, we can smell your fear from here.
      Political oblivion beckons for you just as surely as it did for the Lib Dems.
      You are finished, nothing left for Labour in Scotland but a scorched-earth policy on the few councils they still control until May next year.
      Then you may as well shut up shop.
      You are finished, dead, defunct.
      And will be remembered only as the mob that talked a lot, did very well for themselves and their families and utterly failed the Scots working class.

      And you will be reminded of it every single day for the rest of your worthless existence.

  18. ‘Thus Scotland would be outside the European Union on Independence Day, and would have to apply to rejoin it, with all that entails. We would have to use the Euro, join the European Bank and accept all the rules of the European club. There would be no starting opt-outs for Scotland.’

    Lets look at the very real prospects for Scotland regarding the EU as part of the UK.

    During the independence campaign, Scottish Unionists used to point out that Spain would veto Scotland’s membership of the EU because of Catalan demands for a referendum on independence.

    But the likelihood is Spain will also potentially veto any EU trade deal that would grant the UK access to the single market, unless the UK agrees joint sovereignty of Gibraltar.

    If there were no deal with in two years, the UK would leave the EU on World Trade Organisation terms, meaning tariffs and customs checks for exporters.

  19. on Thursday at Holyrood the to snp government after a decade enforcing a council tax freeze ended it and the party had to vote for a motion criticising their own economic record in government then we find out that snp msp alec neil voted in parliament for remain then changed his mind and voted brexit at the ballot box he says other snp msps did the same it makes me wonder how many snp msps who voted to increase the council tax actually believed in what they were voting for because the freeze ends in april the local elections are in may

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